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BREAKING: Experts SLAM New Study Saying Red Meat Is Healthy


– We're at the American College of Physicians, publishers of the Annals of Internal Medicine And the Physicians Committee is filing a federal complaint with the Federal Trade Commission agist the Annals of Internal Medicine

Why? Because they're not telling you the truth They've done a release far and wide to the media saying there's no need to cut down on meat, including the most unhealthy meats, for good health That's irresponsible We're gonna stop it – Welcome to a very special Facebook live edition of The Exam Room podcast, brought to you by the Physicians Committee

I'm the weight loss champion, Chuck Carroll, joined by Dr Neal Barnard, and our vice president for legal affairs here at the Physicians Committee, Mr Mark Kennedy Gentleman, thank you for being here – Sure, thank you, Chuck

– Glad to be here – This is an important day As we talked about, Neal, earlier today, it is past 5:00 here on the East Coast, here in Washington, DC, the embargo is lifted

And that means that right about now there is going to be a lot of buzz, a lot of hum drum all around the internet, all on your TVs, your radio, all over the place about some health topics that I think are slightly controversial And I really, I don't find it to be too coincidental, but here we are in 2019, and the USDA is coming out with the new guidelines in 2020, and the same group who is responsible for what it is we're about to talk about, is the group that released the study saying well bad fats aren't bad And that of course led to that famed article in Time magazine that said butter is back in 2014 And what happened the next year? New dietary guidelines Talk to me

What is going on today? – Okay here's what's happened There's a private organization called NutriRECS, as in nutritional recommendations, and they submitted a whole group of articles to the Annals of Internal Medicine, which is a generally well respected journal, except for the fact that they did publish the article that you're speaking of in 2014 saying you can eat all the saturated fat you want And that article was shown to have lots and lots of flaws and needed to be corrected Anyway, apart from that, the Annals of Internal Medicine accepted these articles, and what they showed was this Four different meta-analyses where you combine the results of prior studies

There's nothing new, but they re-analyzed the old studies, on what happens if you reduce meat And what happens if you reduce prepossessed meats like bacon and hot dogs, and ham and sausages And what they found is what everybody knows, that you reduce the likelihood of mortality, likelihood of cancer, likelihood of developing a stroke, having heart disease, reduce the risk of diabetes Reducing meat is a good idea And not only did you get these reductions, but they were statistically significant, meaning it's not chance

But then they also published a paper asking omnivores what they thought about meat And looking at a variety of studies that have looked at this And what they found is that by and large omnivores like eating meat, and they think it's important You know, it's kind of these uneducated ideas we all grew up with, you know, it's your source of protein – [Chuck] Right

– And so they then issued one more paper which said here's our recommendations And their recommendations have galvanized every health organization against them Because what they said, I am not making this up, was the reductions in cancer risk, and the risk of having a stroke, and having a heart attack, and having diabetes, are not worth having to give up meat In other words, you love meat so much, and you're so unlikely to do it that what the recommendation was that Americans should continue to eat meat, including processed meat at current levels So whatever bacon and sausage you're eating, just keep on because reducing cancer's not important to you

Not that important Now, these, I hasten to add these were not the recommendations of the Annals journal, or of the American College of Physicians, which owns them, these were the recommendations of these people who submitted the articles and managed to get them published And it makes absolutely no sense So they're not endorsing it, but that's what has come out And what you're gonna see is tonight on the news, tomorrow morning in the newspaper, and everywhere is controversial headlines that medical journal says don't worry about meat, meat won't hurt you, eat all you want

And that's what has cancer researchers and heart researchers just wringing their hands – Yeah and that's just it I mean I am baffled by this because we've been doing this show for nearly two years, and for a lot longer than that, obviously, there's been research done that basically says the exact opposite of what these researchers today are claiming We are talking about statistically significant reductions that were in peer reviewed journals time and time again, highly credible sources I just don't know how they arrived at this particular conclusion

– Yes, well let me be clear that when they did the meta-analyses that are published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, they showed that cutting out meat was a good idea too They didn't dispute that In fact, I'll read you the numbers There are several of these studies that were published One said reducing meat intake by just three servings a week, if that's all you do, just that alone cuts cardiovascular mortality 10%, stroke by 6%, myocardial infarction, that's a heart attack, by 7%, type two diabetes by 10%

If you cut out processed meat, just three servings a week that you're not having cuts diabetes 12%, myocardial infarction 6%, cardiovascular mortality 10% So they agree, they validate it The crazy part is when they came out with what they recommend, it's don't do anything Don't do anything, continue to eat just as you are And so that's what has healthy authorities puzzled

And so the editors at the journal, I just got off the phone with one of the big editors, we said what are we supposed to report? We can't report authorities say don't eat meat What's the news here? And the news here is man bit dog You know when a dog bites a man that's not news, but when somebody comes out and man bites dog, that's news So that's what's happened here Somebody made the ill-advised recommendation that people should just keep eating risky things

And that's not a good idea But I hasten to add the data don't disagree Clearly reducing meat is a good idea There's no, and getting rid of it completely is even better – [Chuck] Right

– And this is not an official recommendation of the journal, but they accepted this article, and all the media, and every mediator you ever talk to is gonna run with this and say see, I was right – Well here's the thing, as a formal journalist, and I should say I've worked for some major news outlets before coming to the Physicians Committee, I can tell you that the headlines are gonna be driven and written, and these articles by and large will be written by journalists who are well meaning but do not have a background in health, do not have a background in medicine, and thus are largely unable to accurately interpret the facts – Well, here are the articles There's a big slew of them You're not gonna read them

– [Chuck] No, no – I have read them and in fact if you go to pcrmorg, I hope I can say this- – [Chuck] Yes – You will see the information there that distills it in plain English very, very quickly I hope people have a look

Because all the information is there Can I say one other thing? – [Chuck] By all means – 'Cause I wanna make sure that Mark comes in because the frosting is on the cake with regard to what Mark and his team have done But one of the authors of one of these papers came out and said excuse me, this is just wrong – [Chuck] Really? – Yeah

His name is John Sievenpiper, he's a Canadian rese archer and does a lot of meta-analyses, and this group brought him in to do the metastatic-analysis And they found health benefits of avoiding meat What they did not let him see was the conclusions that they came up with saying don't reduce meat – [Chuck] Really? – And when he found out he asked the journal to not publish it He said this is completely wrong, I'm totally opposed to this

But what do you think the journal's doing anyway? They're just rolling over him – [Chuck] Wow – In my view, this is irresponsible From a health standpoint it's terrible But from a journalistic standpoint, you've got a medical journal here, are they just chasing click bait? They certainly got a lot of it when their butter is back thing came out a few years ago

I don't know what their motivation is, but it's not right – Well speaking of click bait, now's a good time to say that we are ding our best to get the facts out using a hashtag campaign of our own called cancer causing click bait So if you see this in the media and you wanna get involved, you wanna voice your opinion, do so using the hashtag cancer causing click bait We want to get that part trending Now Dr

Barnard, as you've been talking about, what they're releasing, very alarming And Mark, this is where you come in You and your staff have actually filed a petition with the FTC regarding the publication of this research, correct? – That's right What's happening here is that the journal has been promoting this new issue with some ridiculous language And let me just read you some of it because it's outrageous

So it leads with this New guidelines, no need to reduce red or processed meat consumption for good health And then it continues and it talks about the findings And then it ends with this Those that seek to dispute the NutriRECS findings will be hard pressed finding appropriate evidence with which to build an argument

So they are using this distortion of the findings, and they're using it to promote their journal, to bring people to their journal to either subscribe or to buy it, or to look at their website and look at this issue And so it really is cancer causing click bait, as you said So what we did earlier today was we filed a petition with the fe, the, sorry, the federal trade commission – [Chuck] Yeah – And this is something we've done in the past to stop deceptive advertising

'Cause this is what they've done Deceptive advertisement is a public communication that is deceptive And the idea with the FTC is that it's going to step in and stop deceptive advertisements because they have the capacity to change the consume behavior And that's the last thing we want here is consumers taking on the, when it's deceptive that is, that's an advertisement And that's exactly what the FTC is there to stop

– And let's follow up on this again We've filed similar petitions in the past with success, correct? – We did Several, about 15 years ago now, the dairy industry got together and they, this was an actual quote that they were going to address the opportunity presented by the obesity epidemic And basically what they started to say in a series of advertisements that went on for several years, was that if you consumed dairy products, three servings per day, you would lose weight And of course that wasn't supported by the science or even common sense

And we filed a petition with the FTC, which stepped in and stopped the advertisement campaign – Dr Barnard, I want to come to you next Here's the big question for me What do we know about this group? Where are they getting their funding from? Are there any conflicts? – I don't know the answer to that

And we've been trying to understand it NutriRECS is run by a guy named Bradley Johnston, who was really kind of the driver behind this And when you look at the funding they say no funding You know, I don't know how you get these people to all work for free But I don't know

And when you look at NutriRECS website you don't see funding either Where is the money coming from? Honestly, I have no idea And I'm not alleging anything 'cause I just don't know But it's very peculiar – That is peculiar

Most times it's relatively easy, I would think, to kind of trace the source of the funding for research – [Dr Barnard] Well it's gotta be declared – Right – In the research articles

In this case they just say there's nothing – Interesting Um, I know that there were a lot of facts as we discussed, at the top that were omitted from this particular analysis, so I think that we sent out a summary of this, at least internally to the staff, and if we could just go over some of those studies I know that there was a 2012 study from the Harvard School of Public Health that found that eating red meat "increases the risk of dying prematurely, "including from heart disease "or cancer" And this was a study that looked at over 121,000 individuals

I mean that's a pretty large sample size – Well it really is And I should be clear, the authors of these Annals' reports aren't disputing any of that They're saying yes processed meats cause cancer, in effect Red meat causes cancer, heart disease, and contributes to all of these things

What their message, if you read it, is they'll say by cutting down, let's say you have three fewer meat servings in a week, they say the benefit of that with regard to reducing cancer and reducing heart disease, not huge Maybe the evidence is a little shaky So given the fact that people don't wanna give up meat, just continue Now they could have said we don't really trust the evidence, we need more evidence, we're not gonna make any recommendation That wouldn't have been smart

But they went, unfortunately, way beyond that They said you should continue to eat meat So what if a child in school is learning about nutrition or something in a class and they bring in the headlines? And the child might be wanting to go vegetarian or vegan 'cause their family's health conscious or they have a heart for animals, or they're an environmentally oriented person, or whatever the case may be They're getting the message you should not do that, you should continue to eat meat And that is of course 180 degrees wrong

– I think that when these headlines hit there's going to be a lot of question marks at the end of it Is red meat, is processed meat really bad? So if you have a question as well, why not jump in with your own right here on Facebook live Go ahead and post that below Before the end of the show we will do our best to get to as many of these questions as possible I mean this is, especially with October coming up, and there being this tie with breast cancer, being breast cancer awareness month

Why don't we touch on that a little bit since I have you here What do we know about the link between meat and breast cancer? – Well I'm glad you're asking about that because we do have a new campaign, as you know, and you've talked about here, let's beat breast cancer Tomorrow is breast cancer awareness month And most people think about processed meat like bacon, by the way turkey bacon is still bacon Chicken sausage, all these things are in the carcinogenic category

They, most people think of them as being related to cancer in your intestinal track, and that's right But breast cancer's also linked to processed meat And so the timing couldn't be worse that at the time when we're hopefully giving women the information that they need to protect themselves from breast cancer, you have this out of the blue message saying ignore all of that, just go ahead and continue eating meat It's really unfortunate – We talked about the studies that were omitted, but I wanna ask you about some really popular diets

And I'm not gonna put diet in quotation mark for these because these are diets that are often prescribed by physicians when you go in there If you have high blood pressure then they put you on the DASH diet or the Mediterranean diet Was any of that taken into account here? – I'm glad you mention that because actually when you, when you look at is there value in simply reducing meat, and the DASH diet, D-A-S-H, dietary approach is to stop hypertension, they were, this study was done years ago and it's very influential ever since They were inspired by the fact that vegetarians had lower blood pressure So they thought well let's see what happens if you just reduce meat instead of eliminating it, and replace it with healthy foods

And what they found was blood pressure does in fact fall And so, and by the way, you don't have to wait a year This was an eight week study Very, very quick blood pressure falls – [Chuck] Wow

– Been hugely influential, not included in any of these reports The PREDIMED study, this was a Spanish study, but extremely influential because it was the study that really established the Mediterranean diet What they did was they brought in more than 7,000 people They were all at risk for heart disease They didn't eliminate meat, they reduced it into a Mediterranean pattern

And what they found is despite the fact that they didn't eliminate it completely they still found a substantial reduction in cardiovascular risk over time There's another study called the DPP, Diabetes Prevention Program Huge, these are all like the biggest studies in their own areas of influence – [Chuck] Yeah – The DPP looked at, right now 30% of Americans have either pre-diabetes or diabetes

The question is can you stop that? And what they did was they brought in people who had pre-diabetes, meaning their sugars were inching up And some of them were given a diabetes drug, metformin Others were given nothing, and some of them were given a diet and lifestyle change And the investigators were struck by the fact that metformin reduced the likelihood of getting diabetes a little bit compared to the people who did nothing But the lifestyle changes were dramatically stronger

And so that changed the whole landscape Okay why are we prescribing all of these drugs when with a diet change you can do this? Among the steps were reducing the meat that you're eating – [Chuck] Right – Not here All that was just ignored by the researchers

So in my view these were not the world's best meta-analyses Even these, with those limitations, still uniformly showed that when you reduce meat you reduce cancer risk, diabetes risk, heart risk and stroke risk So it's a no brainer to think that everyone is puzzling by is number one why did they say to keep eating meat? And number two, why is the press going crazy with this, thinking all right let's just all keep eating meat? – Mark, stand by, I'm gonna come back to you I have a followup on the FTC position But since we're talking about this, why don't we do a quick refresher for people who are just assuming that diabetes is still tied almost exclusively to sugar and carbohydrates

Meat here plays an important role Could you just kind of rehash that for us a little bit? – Yeah welcome to the 21st century This is an important thing Many people have had this 1950s idea that I got a high blood sugar 'cause I ate sugar Or I ate carbohydrate that turns to sugar and it got in my blood so my blood sugar rose

That's sort of one third right Your, sugars enter your body from foods you eat, that's a natural thing But the sugar normally goes into your muscles and goes into your liver and other organs to power them The problem in diabetes isn't that you're having sources of sugar like fruit or carbohydrate The problem is it's stuck in the blood and can't get into the cell

And what researchers, including our team, have found that when you eat fatty foods the fat gets into the muscle cell and stops the sugar from entering So the answer to diabetes isn't to eat sugary foods and not eat healthy carbohydrate, you need them for health The answer is to get the fat out of your cells – [Chuck] Gotcha And there's your connection

Mark, followup for you So we filed this FTC petition this morning, what happens now? What's the process? Can you walk us through that? – Sure, the FTC has the power to investigate And so that is the first thing we asked for Take a look at this, look at the advertisement Look at any other advertising language that the journal uses to promote this issue

And then take the appropriate action, which we think would be to issue a cease and desist order And that would be something that just says you can't make this public statement any longer That's not about the content of the journal, it's about the content of the advertising to drive people to the journal, to the website, and to become subscribes And in the past the one- – Okay, if you have a question, please don't be shy about positioning it below We will do our best to get to as many of them as possible before the end of the show

Do we know specifically which studies were included in their metastatic-analysis? – Typically when these things are done they're not published in the articles But typically they have supplemental studies that you can go online and see the list of the ones they consulted in more detail And they start out with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, and they read through them So sometimes those supplemental materials are online But they do have fairly good tables of the reductions in risk for a whole variety of measures

And it's impressive to see how good for you it is to stop eating meat It's really quite impressive – [Chuck] How busy have your phones been today knowing that this is coming? – Very, very busy I mean this has been frankly the worst held secret It's been going all weekend

And frankly it's, it's physicians, health advocates and scientists, who are saying please don't undo the work that we're trying to do because cancer is an epidemic in young people When I say young people I mean 25 to 49 That group we're seeing colorectal cancer rising, not falling That's not because of genes, that's because of bacon and sausage, and other foods that are very popular in young people who are immortal and they think it's fine, and they're getting advertising telling them to continue But you thought those advertisements came from Arby's, and now they're coming form the Annals of Internal Medicine saying eat bacon and keep it up

And you can have good health in doing that And that is, well, it's just irresponsible And so, you know we don't want to have to go to the Federal Trade Commission and say to our peers you are hurting people But that's what we've had to do – That's so wild to me

Ann the fact that, as we discussed, it wasn't long ago that the World Health Organization, the World Health Organization came out and said that red and processed meats, carcinogens, carcinogens – 2015 Group one carcinogens, meaning that they look at the strength of evidence, and the strength of evidence is as clear cut as it is that tobacco causes lung cancer, it is that clear and established that these processed meats cause colorectal cancer The AMA two years ago came out saying that hospitals should stop serving them Stop serving them to patients, to your staff, to your visitors, stop serving

And to have the Annals come out and say ignore all that, undo all that, continue it Now in truth the Annals didn't say that in their, in the articles that they, well, I mean they did actually They issued this (laughing) they did I mean they issued this release saying do exactly that

But the articles themselves, only the article by Johnston really made that big case that you should keep doing it But the Annals – Ran with it – Ran with it And they, they, frankly I would not have accepted that article if I were the editor

And had you done so, you would certainly not be promoting it far and wide And the result, if this is the result they wanted, they're getting it I mean every single newspaper in the country and abroad is gonna be covering this whole idea that maybe you should eat hot dogs again Maybe you should go back to bacon Maybe sausage is good for your child

That's a death sentence for some people – Really, it just seems so counter intuitive But I also think that it's important here that we note that it's not just the Physicians Committee, it's not just you that are coming out against this research I mean there are just doctors lined up and organizations lined up down the street – I wanna tip my hat to the True Health Initiative, run by David Katz at Yale University

500 research and health experts have joined forces to talk about what is true And they've really spear headed that, and directly asked the editor and engaged her over the weekend I was part of these discussions He said just wait, take another look at what you're doing And she just out and out refused

– [Chuck] Wow – To do it The many researchers at Harvard have been very outspoken and very, very good on this But it's not just them I mean even frankly, you call anybody up on the phone, I mean how good is it for you to keep eating bacon and sausage

I mean your average person knows this is not good And the fact that a medical journal would put out an advertisement of this type is surprising – [Chuck] Very I will certainly give you that Again, if you have a question, go ahead and put it in the comments section below

They're starting to come in Jill has the very first question She just wants to know flat out gentleman what can we do to help? What can we do to help? – Uh, thank you, I'm gonna ask Mark that question, but before you jump in, I think really getting the word out is important If you get questions from your friends about, gee, so they only hear the tail end of it so they misinterpret it Tell the truth

You'll find the truth at pcrmorg It's there and you can take that information, share it with anybody Share that link Let people know these are not government guidelines or official guidelines of any official medial organization

It's an opinion of a guy named Bradley Johnston, who submitted it to a journal and got them to print it Let them know that this science is very clear cut That eating meat is not a healthy thing, and reducing it or eliminating it is a good choice And even these research studies validated that – Absolutely

And don't forget, make your opinions known also on social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, use the hashtag cancer causing click bait Mark, if somebody wants to go with the more official channels, I know that we filed that petition with the FTC, is there anything that somebody watching, somebody listening right now can do? – For sure They can pay attention Because what's gonna happen, as we've been discussing, is that advertisers and members of the industry will start adopting this position, and they'll use it as their own It'll show up in other advertisements

And when that happens, that's when the average consumer, everyone else who has seen the ad, whether it's by the journal to promote it's issue or by the food industry to promote the actual food products can also submit a complaint Because it's all going to be deceptive I mean there's no question there If the science doesn't support it it'll be a deceptive advertisement And anything that's designed to attract the consumer to purchase something they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, that's worthy of a complaint to the FTC

So that's what everybody should be prepared for I think – And there's one other thing that I think would be useful When you read this most egregious article, and this is the one that says meat eaters won't give it up I mean it's really quite ridiculous Omnivores enjoy eating meat

They consider it an essential component of a healthy diet So therefore keep on going What they're basically saying is people will not change So if you're listening to this program and you have a social network or you have friends, and you have in fact changed your diet, it's important for people to register that of course people will change In the same way people can quit smoking or a person with other health bad habits can change

All of us in this room have made changes – [Chuck] No question – To our lifestyle and profited from that People will in fact embrace change So share that information

– We have done almost two years worth of shows now just about change I used to be 420 pounds and ate eat with every single meal Doesn't happen anymore I've had so many people come on who have reversed heart disease after they took meat off of their plate as well And dropped a significant amount of weight

Reversed diabetes People who were starring death in the face, and are now living long and healthy lives because of the dietary and lifestyle changes that they have made So if you think that change is not possible, just go back and listen to some archives of The Exam Room And certainly make your point known as well Interesting question for you Dr

Barnard coming from Vincent, who I guess is a very fit advocate, talking about body builders and people who need a lot of muscle, athletes, think that you need to eat meat to get that muscle He says can you recommend some good vegan foods for body builders so they can take that meat off of their plate? – Yeah, well first of all let me recommend a movie, which you know all about, called The Game Changers Because The Game Changers is just now coming out and you can access it I'm sure you probably know more – [Chuck] Tomorrow

October 1st as a matter of fact It'll be up on iTunes – It tackles exactly that issue And it talks with many, many athletes about how do you bulk up so it's not flab, it's muscle you're building And I have to say one of the most engaging interviews is with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was obviously an extremely successful body builder, one of the most successful of all time

And he said we all grew up with this idea that you need meat protein, but he then, you know bulls, stallions, elephants, gorillas, they're not eating steak, they don't eat meat at all, and they get plenty of protein from plant sources So anyway the move is all about that The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics came out on this years ago and said everybody will get adequate protein from plant sources alone, including athletes And of course if you want to pump up your protein, if you're one of these protein shake kind of people, you can get protein from those sources, you just pick the vegan products They're out there

The idea that you need meat for protein is really a 1950s idea – Kind of a specific question to these studies coming in from Chris, who writes based on the recommendations, what does it mean specifically after the two states recommendations, "weak recommendation/low certainty of evidence" What exactly does that mean? – Okay, what it means really is that they will look at, when you do a meta-analysis, they'll say how often did they assess the diets of the participants for example And if they assess them many times, they'll call it maybe strong If they assessed it once or twice, they might call it weaker

So they will then grade the study based on these things If there's a very small group it's weak, if it's a large group it's more So they will typically grade the value of the studies However, two things should be said Even with whatever caveats you may have about any individual study, the net result was statistically significant, meaning it's extremely unlikely to be the result of chance

The second thing is you don't even need a meta-analysis If you give me 50 research participants in eight weeks, I will show you that they will lose weight when you change their diets, and that their blood pressure comes down and their lipids improve All a meta-analysis does is it takes all of those studies, which vary in their methods, and you crunch them together When you crunch them together it's sometimes messier because they differ in the ages of the people, the kind of intervention they use So they do lose some power

But the value of the meta-analysis really is it shows you consistency – [Chuck] Right – That all these studies show the same darn thing, and that's what we found here – Real quick here We only have time for a couple more questions, but we're talking specifically about red and processed meats here, but Barbara Moore wants to know are chicken and turkey and fish, are they okay? Are they healthier to eat? – No, which is to say when researchers have looked, in fact I think one of the most telling studies on this comes from the Adventist Healthy study two

And what they did is they looked at people who were Adventists So they were health conscious, non-smoking, tea totalling people And the meat eaters among them were compared to those who ate meat really in moderation, much less red meat and less meat overall, and then they had people who only ate white meat Only ate fish, nothing more And they compared them to ova-lacto vegetarians and vegans

And what you see is when you look at body mass index, the more you get toward, from a regular meat eater to a semi-vegetarian, to a pescetarian to a vegetarian to a vegan, weight just steps down all the way And so the people who eat only fish are kind of halfway between the meat eaters and the vegans But what's more important is the same is true with diabetes The people who eat no red meat and eat only fish and that's it, they do better than the people who eat all kinds of meat all the time But they are substantially at higher risk of diabetes compared to the people who don't eat any kind of meat at all

– And I guess the final statement here is there are a lot of people who are chiming in right now who are a little bit upset, the fact that you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube You know we're gonna get this headline out there, and now what can we do to kind of get this message retracted? – I think, just going back to the first question, there is some information on pcrmorg that will also tell what the average person, who hasn't even seen the advertisements from the journal yet could also do to take action – Yeah that's important Go to pcrm

org I presume that information is up as we speak And it's detailed enough so you'll know what you're talking about, but it's not hugely long But it'll tell you what you need to know – So what else can we do? Well you can use that hashtag cancer causing click bait

That is very important Get involved on social media Use that hashtag cancer causing click bait Make your voices known And the other thing you can do is also subscribe to this podcast

Not just the Facebook live, but it is a phenomenal podcast that we release each and every week up on Apple podcasts, I'm on Spotify and on stitcher And when you subscribe, specifically on Apple podcast, if you give us a five star rating, that improves our rankings on Apple podcast, and when that happens more people see and hear the show And in turn more people then get this information because that shows that they then are sharing it with their friends and their family, and saying hey, you really need to listen to this message, there's a lot of important information here So go ahead and subscribe to The Exam Room by the Physicians Committee on Apple podcasts Give that five star rating, improve our ranking and that goes a long way toward improving the health of a lot of people in this world

– Can I also encourage people to contribute too If they're on a news site or some site where people are talking about it, go into the comments, register a comment, put in our URL so that people can go and see for themselves if they can link to the information we have, let people see for themselves – Absolutely It should be right up on our home page as speak If it is not, it will be there momentarily, I can virtually guarantee you that

Final thought from you, Mr Kennedy – I think everybody' just got to do what's the smartest thing, which is pretty much to ignore the message that's coming out from this journal – [Chuck] Dr Barnard, final words

– Um, if anything good comes out of this, I think it is that I have never seen the medical community so galvanized Even people who haven't stopped eating meat themselves realize that this is an unhealthy message And so I think the net result of all this, I hope, will be that people will realize yes there are bad recommendations that come out, and yes sometimes journals do foolish and even dangerous things But there is an opportunity to correct it I call on the Annals to fix it

They need to do this We're not, this is not a game This is a life or death issue And it becomes more urgent as time goes on and people have these exposures more and more So I think the good thing is that people recognize that

And the medical community is speaking with one voice, and hopefully we'll be stronger as a result – Absolutely And just thinking back to five years ago when we had that, another flareup kind of like this, you know But think about how much progress has been made as far as educating people in those five years You see such a huge trend in the plant-based community right now

Everybody seemingly is getting on this wagon And they want to improve their health They're kind of seeing the light here That gives me hope personally – I think you're right, Chuck

And yet at the same time there are vulnerable people There are people who only see the headline, and they're not gonna take time to read more And their behavior is influenced by that They pass that along to other people How many folks have heard I heard that

And that's as far as it goes And that's the big danger of what the Annals has done by sending around this advertisement saying you can eat these things and be in good health So hopefully we'll win this – No safe amount of meat, correct? – Right Obviously

But not only that but the idea of continued current levels, that's just really crazy and that's what they're saying So do cut down And hopefully quit – I gotcha All right gentleman

Mark Kennedy, thank you so much Dr Barnard, thank you so much – [Dr Barnard] Thank you, chuck

– You are going to be very busy for the foreseeable future, but we appreciate you taking the time to join us here today – My pleasure Thank you, Chuck – And thank you for listening and watching

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