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Before there was MTV with Tarzan Dan, S07E357 Geeks & Beats Podcast


The following episode of Geeks & Beats contains language or subject matter that may be unsuitable for children (dramatic soundtrack) Listener discretion is advised

Oh there we go, okay Okay, so you're recording on your end, Alan's recording on his, I'm recording on mine And of course my Pro Tools crashed So here we are (laughter) Stand by

Hang on You wonder why we told you you need a drink (laughter) And we had a buffer overload, which is weird Ah 'cause you were doing stuff in the background That's what– Too many apps, too many apps, there is an effin buffer

(enthusiastic music) I've split my screen into three pieces I've got top left corner, you guys, bottom left corner, Pro Tools, and then the right side is dedicated to the content of the show, because I cannot trust Pro Tools I have a picture of my cat (laughter) You're so high tech man Yeah, man

All right, stand by here we go ♪ Here we go ♪ ♪ Here we go ♪ ♪ Here we go ♪ From the headquarters of Geeks & Beats magazine, now with 12 billion subscribers on iTunes and GeoCities, this is the world's most popular podcast with Alan Cross and Michael Hainsworth featuring musical guest, Sting The music video, as we know anyway, is pushing, let's say 40 years old Doesn't look a year over 39

Tarzan Dan from The Hit List joins us to talk about the rise and fall of Music Television Plus, how to talk to a rock star Or how to get one to pinch your ass Though it was his ass he said she pinched, right? I think it was his arm Oh! (laughter) And now, Alan Cross and Michael Hainsworth

♪ Here we go ♪ Five, four, we've gone for main engine start we have (rocket engine roaring) Ladies and gentlemen, rock and roll (rock music) At geeksandbeatscom, we asked Amber Healy to put together a really interesting collection of stories about the evolution of music in the world of television And have you seen this? She went to town She did go to town on this

(musical note plays) I'm very pleased that we have such good people on our side Oh, it's fantastic So we thought, you know, with the I think it's the 39th anniversary of Music Television with the launch of MTV, that, you know, we need to look back at this So she went back, but so did we, we went back into our Rolodex and pulled up one of our favorite guys (laughter) in the music video business, Tarzan Dan from The Hit List And before we get into this week's number one, what was number one in 1995 at this time, Jamie Walters, and Hold On

No kiddin' eh? All right, number one this week, they were born in of course Australia, Daniel and Darren, born in the 70s and their idols were Duran Duran, check out Savage Garden on The Hit List Thanks for joining us Hi guys, how are you doing? It's so cool to be here I'm shocked, it's always weird, it's like, "So Kenny we'd like to have you on and we'd like to chat" and I'm like, "okay Do I owe you money, you know, or something like that?" That's a good question to start with

Yeah Any time somebody comes out of the woodwork, (laughter) from the past, it's like, "have they run into hard times, and they're coming back for that 15 bucks That's it they owe me?" Yeah, I know I actually I have a story about that Glass Tiger, Al from Glass Tiger

This is so funny 'cause– Alan do you mean Frew, right? No, not the Al Connelly Oh, okay The other Al He and Sam Reid came in on the show, on my afternoon show, and it was funny They just said "hey man, we're in town

Can we come in?" and I was like, "oh, that's so cool" You know, 'cause just to have that relationship and stuff like that Sure enough, the very first time I met Glass Tiger was when Don't Forget Me When I'm Gone came out And it was in Calgary And that's the irony is, I'm in, back in Calgary again

And then I remembered that Al had asked me if he could borrow 10 bucks, because he needed to buy smokes So anyways, I was like, "dude, do you remember that time? I need that money back now" And he literally goes into his pocket and he's like, "I owe you" And he remembered it It's so funny, right, like, so weird

So you just kind of made that fire at the right time, I guess So we're not looking for money here, but we're looking for information (laughing) Okay And quite frankly, how old do you feel that we're talking about MTV turning 40 in a year? (sighing) There are days, I went bike riding today and I felt 100, so (laughing) And I walk in and my wife's like, "man, you look like you're in pain

" Oh yeah Yeah We're not celebrating any part of this There are hurts that I didn't know that were gonna come with age but, you know what, what I love about the fact that when you tell me that MTV is now 39 years old, it's one of the things where, you know, my wife made me put these things on the wall, because it's history And I didn't really have anything on my walls in my office

And she goes "yeah," but you know, like if my finger right here, that's MC Hammer, that's "Weird Al" Yankovic and Paula Abdul down here And it's so funny like, over my shoulder here, here, here Here, that's Destiny's Child Like to be part of the dynamic that was the connection to all this great music and to be the conduit to all these great memories that people have 'cause we know that over time, memories are built in music

And you hear a song and it triggers something, it opens a door somewhere inside here And you go, "wow!" It's like I'm there I'm at that time" Where you have a very distinct memory of something like that And so, when I hear that it's 39 years old, yeah, okay, MTV that really does feel painful

Especially if you see some of the old videos like (laughter) It's like "hammer pants should never come back, okay" ("U Can't Touch This" playing) ♪ My my my my ♪ (record scratching) Ever, ever, ever (laughter) Well they're all coming back, you know that I know! Because we got to have the skinny jeans and all that, we can't get Alan into skinny jeans (laughter) No, because I because we can't get Alan into skinny jeans

(laughter) There's a physical reason for that Yeah, 40 years not the only thing that's passed, Al, on TV but on the website, we mentioned that Amber had really gone to town Like she went so far as to go back as the year 1894 Wow For the potential first ever music video, which was a pair of sheet music publishers, Edward Marks and Joe Stern

They hired an electrician named George Thomas with some musicians to promote a song And they would have the song played while images were put up on a screen But then she jumps ahead to the 1920s and then into the 1940s But wouldn't you say that Music Television really kind of started in 1952 with Dick Clark and American Bandstand? Absolutely Absolutely

I think that, you know, when you look at somebody like him, or you know, some of the people that were like him, (mumbles) red (electronic interference) Sorry? Sorry? No, in Canada Robinson Red Red Robinson, thank you There you go, in Vancouver, the guy who the Beatles swore at (chuckles) you know, how do you if I can have that on my resume, it would be the first thing I would post These people were again, they were the ground breakers, the people who brought it to the masses

And it was kind of like back in the day, you know, if you had a circus, which a lot of this really is, you have a ringmaster And those ringmasters did, you know, give you that connection to the artists that you could never have had So that's why they used to tour with all the artists, as well And they'd come out on stage, right? And they'd be like, "hey, how are you doing?" And we'd be like "oh I listen to that guy on the radio I heard him" and that's why, you know, or Dick Clark with American Bandstand on television

You know, 'cause he started on radio and then went to TV and I think that is, you know, you nailed it with that, is that he was that guy So there would be Dick Clark touring with his caravans, Alan Freed touring with his caravans, then by the time we get to Ed Sullivan, there we have Elvis Presley on TV for the first time, we have any number of rock and rollers So that, I guess, kind of qualifies as Music Television because back then, back before MTV, we never saw our heroes We only read about them We saw some pictures in a magazine, and we gleaned what we could from liner notes and artwork

That was it To see them in the flesh, actually moving around on a screen was an amazingly big deal "Oh, that's what they look like, oh, that's how they dress, oh, that's how they talk Cool, I want to be like that" Well, I think to your point, at the time, the most watched television event in history, and still to this day, one of the most watched television events is Elvis Presley with Dick Clarke on Ed Sullivan Show, the Beatles

Absolutely Yeah Beatles, Ed Sullivan February 1964, I think 76 million people watched the Beatles on TV that night And I think– And I think there were only 76 million people on the planet (laughter) Very close, yeah

So that was one of those epical moments in pop culture history that people will talk about for decades from now I think that what happens is, is again, what we've talked about, people can remember where they were, you know If the Beatles were on TV, you know where you were at that time, if you were alive at that time, or you were around or you experienced it And not unlike, you know, the 1972 hockey goal, you know, for Team Canada, or the 2010, you know, Crosby goal They're benchmarks, like I was saying with music

Music has this connection to our timeline that always seems to continue, and you can always go back to it and it'll always bring you back So like, you know, with me working here in Calgary at Q107, and we play 70s 80s 90s We just did a thing called 20 years in 20 days And what it was, was a different year each day, we played the best of the best And what happened was, is you were hearing little stories about songs

But at the same time people would be like, they'd be texting in or they'd be calling and going, "this song was the song, I made out to it" such and such, you know Or "when I left ET, after I saw it in the theater, and we went and parked, this was playing on the radio" Or whatever it is So I think that you're exactly right when you say that there are those certain things along the way that people will connect to because of time events So let's then Alan talk about really the precursor to MTV

And with Black Lives Matter and things like that where we're talking more and more about the contributions of the black community to a whole bunch of different industries Can we not talk about Soul Train? Ugh! Yeah but before we get to Soul Train, we have to remember what the Beatles did in the mid 1960s They stopped touring and they stopped appearing on television live So what they began to do is film short clips that they would send to the TV stations to ITV, Channel 4, BBC, in lieu of them actually performing So, beginning about '65, '66, we begin to see all these short, fanciful films built around Beatles' songs

So that builds, then we get into the early 1970s and we have certain artists, Dr sorry, Captain Beefheart being one of them, that would create these short films for record company conventions So people who went to those conventions could see what the artists and the label sounded and looked like (upbeat music starts) And then we get into the idea of all these different TV shows So there's Soul Train, there is Burt Sugarman's best with The Midnight Special, there's whatever we saw on Saturday Night Live

So yeah, there was a time in 1970s when we had these music showcase programs that, again, brought people into the tent This is what they look like, this is what they sound like, this is how they dress Did anybody watch Solid Gold for the music? There's another one (laughter) Nobody, nobody (mumbles) (electronic interference) illegal In Canada, I never watched Solid Gold or Soul Train, you know, Boogie was the Canadian one, I think it was– Right, right, yeah

Made fun of that on SCTV with Mel's Rock Pile (laughter) Oh welcome once again to Mel's Rock Pile, I'm Rockin' Mel Slirrup and were gonna have a lot of fun on Rock Pile today You watched that for the dancing, you watched that to see what kids your age were doing and how they were dressing and what that cultural experience was That was that memory-building moment that you were talking about, Dan Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a big part of, you know, if you even move it past that and then you had Electric Circus on MuchMusic and you had (indistinct)– Or as my wife used to call it because she worked there, and she would have to suffer the kids, the girls in the washroom every time

She would go from the newsroom into the washroom and back She'd be like, "ugh it's another night of electric cervix" (laughter) Oh no! (speaking faintly) that's what it was The camera shots were right up the hulu Wow man, that was (laughter) Then there was– What I'm the only guy willing to go out on a limb on that

Nah Oh and Dan's mic doesn't work anymore for some reason Bye bye (laughing) I was fascinated Alan, by what you just explained is that the actual genesis of the music video itself wasn't necessarily geared towards the public as much as it was geared towards the record industry to get people to play these artists and they were these encapsulated four and five minute, well, I guess back in the 60s and 70s they weren't four or five minutes long, so probably two and a half to three and a half minutes Right

So we had shows in the UK, like The Old Grey Whistle Test, Top of the Pops and so on, that would either have people on miming, which people hated, artists hated, or they would send in these videos if they had the budget, and that's where the Beatles came in And this is also why, when MTV signed on in 1981, so much of the library was English, was British, because they had a very long tradition of creating these short film clips based on songs And when MTV signs on, they realized that there aren't a lot of non-British acts that have been doing this So when MTV signed on, they had 250 videos in their library, and 30 of those videos were by Rod Stewart (laughter) That is a fact

Let's get to The Hit List but before we do, I would like to know the origin story of Tarzan Dan It was Calgary, it was radio, I was Dan Freeman and a bunch of us radio guys decided to go out to a bar We were hanging out and doing what we were doing– It's amazing how many stories begin with "a bunch of us decided to go out to a bar" (laughing) And I was not inebriated, I had my faculties But what happened was is somebody had thought that my show was very untamed

It was like a jungle and I said, "oh, what's in the jungle?" And this lady said, "oh, lions and tigers and cheetahs," and I went, "oh, Tarzan Dan, nice to meet you" And anyway, it was Andre Maisonneuve and he had actually said, "I'm gonna call you that on the radio tomorrow" I was like, "no, no, no, no" And so when he introduced me on the air that day, he said, "your new name is Tarzan Dan and we've all decided" And I'm like, "what?" And he goes, "yeah, yeah, no, Tarzan Dan

Tarzan Dan Freeman" What station was this? That was at AM 106 in Calgary back in the day And I was a young buck, I was one of those kids who thought he knew more than he really did in the industry, and– Oh, imagine that, none of us have been No, really (laughs) through that stage Oh! You know, way too confident, You know, I mean, you know, it's like, "wow, I can be insane and people"

Well actually, there's a true story behind this My mom was the one who convinced me to get into radio, because I was a hypertonic kid And she said, "if you get onto the radio, people will think you're normal" And so, (laughter) yeah, it's like "thanks mom" and it worked out to be a great career So she obviously knew what she was talking about

Clearly So at what point, The Hit List was '91? '91, so well late– You did it for six years Yeah, I did it 'til '97, yeah, so that would make sense I was on YTV prior to that I was on Rock 'N Talk with Laurie Hibberd

And so guys– Oh wow! Yeah! I thought about that for wow Right? And I just saw her and you know, you know who she's married to, right? She's married– No Okay so if you, you know, So for those who don't know who Laurie Hibberd is, Laurie Hibberd is– Laurie used to be a host on YTV She's written numerous bestsellers now, which is really, really cool, and she's doing really, really well Her husband is Gelman

The guy from the used to be Regis and– No! Yeah! Regis and Kathie Lee, and he's been producing it all this time to now Ryan Seacrest and Kelly Ripa Yeah Holy crap Yeah, right? I did not know that

So she was amazing and I was doing record reviews on her show, just like Joey Vendetta, remember that? Yeah So he and I were doing those And then what happened was is they said, "we were thinking about doing a countdown show, and we're not sure what the name will be, but we'd like you to audition for it, but everybody, it's an open audition, so you got to come and audition" And I'm thinking "with this face? Really? Like why would I go I haven't got a chance in hell

" Because I always thought I was kind of a goofy-looking kind of, you know, weird kid And that was just me Did you have the shaved head at the time? Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's what I thought I did, which is crazy right? Yeah And at that time, it was so odd to have a shaved head

So for the first couple of years, I actually wore a baseball hat Simply because at that time, it was you know, if you had a shaved head, you were probably not a very nice person and– Yeah, you were called a skin head That's right, yeah Yeah And so you get stopped on the subway and stuff like that And I just shaved my head 'cause I was losing my hair as a young guy, and one of the funniest comments in an interview that was in a newspaper one time was that "he's such a nice guy, it's just too bad he shaves his head to disguise that he's going bald

" And I wrote the editor and I said, "can I ask a question? If I shaved my head am I not completely bald?" Like, think about that for a second (laughter) It's like I choose, I embrace it, get over it And I just thought it was such a weird thing to mention in a music video host interview It was like "what the huh?" Anyway, now I'm a mess So I still shaved my head

Where am I going with this? So yes, I did have a shaved head But, I went in, I auditioned, I got a call back with a bunch of other people PJ Phil was one of the callbacks (laughs) and there were just numerous people that had been there for the callback

And then I was at CFTR at the time in Toronto and– Working with my uncle Dan There you go, right? And– Dan Williams was in the afternoon Exactly, right? Was it mid– No, Dan wasn't there at that time actually Oh was he not? No Tom Rivers was doing afternoons and Okay Jessie and Jean were doing mornings, if I'm not correct

Yeah And I was doing evenings And get into the business' nepotism (laughing) You know, what happened, was I went down to the promo director's office, and I said "we are giving away that Janet Jackson jacket It's signed, can I borrow it for the afternoon?" And so he goes "yeah, sure, okay

" And so what I did was I took it to the audition and in the audition, I was like, "Hey, how you doing tonight? What you want to do is watch for me to swing through one of your videos, and when I do, write down what the video is and send it in and I'll draw one next week and somebody's gonna win this Janet Jackson jacket" And– So wait a minute, you turned your audition into a clip that you could use anywhere to promote your radio station Pretty much (laughing) You know, and people have said to me that the jump from radio to TV is not as difficult as it is from radio to, sorry, from TV to radio, and I gotta agree We are told to do things inside the confines of our abilities and inside a time, you know, whether you're enjoying the song or whatever, so a lot of times that was just built into our personality, anyway

Then we threw ourselves into it, and we were who we were And so when they just said, you know, just keep Tarzan Dan, the guy on the radio This was easy And little did I think I was gonna get a phone call that afternoon after the callbacks, and they were like, "it's yours if you want it" And I literally went crazy

I hung up the phone, I was jumping around like a maniac, I was crying, I was so excited And I couldn't believe that this nerdy kid, and I said, "why'd you pick me?" and they said, "well, because you just seem like somebody that people would, you know, at that time 'cause we didn't have email, would write and so we did about 66,000 pieces of mail, mail-in for people to try and win every year And I signed a postcard to every kid I don't even know what, yeah, I don't even know what it cost to do that But when, you know, when email came around, they were very happy because it was (laughing), it was a little bit easier, but we still did the mail-ins and to have that, I think that that was what really mattered

It was not unlike what we did with radio I thought, you know, if we can take something tangible, like a postcard with my picture on it, I can sign it and sign it to them and say "hi" They're gonna hold on to that and they're gonna go "wow, that person," not unlike, again, wheel right back to what we were talking about in the beginning If you have connection to celebrity, or music or something like that, what happens is, is they feel validated that they like you And so I think that that's, you know, I get messages all the time

People will send me a picture of their Hit List CD, or a postcard that I sent them, or an autograph I gave them And I'm like, "what?" And, you know, I interviewed (indistinct) back in November, December last year And he was talking about how he was obsessed with Madonna, and watched The Hit List every week, you know, and it's weird to meet these people who grew up watching you on television And you seem to have some kind of, like I said, you were the conduit to all these good things I'll give you a perfect example of this

I did a zoom call, sort of meet and greet kind of thing, you know, maybe lead to a client relationship down the road, I don't know But I mentioned that I have this podcast with Alan Cross and the woman was like, "Oh my god, I love Alan Cross" (laughing) And it was just like, it was just non-stop Alan And it was awesome, because now I know I've got a listener for life on the Big Show And actually, Alan, you might have some interesting insight into this because Dan says something funny about that transition from a radio into television

My aunt who was the receptionist at CFTR (laughing) You really were– Back to the nepotism No kidding Yeah She had told me she had gone on years later to work in television

And she had said to me when I was in radio and making the move into television, she said, "radio people make the best television people, because they get worked like dogs, and they're accustomed to the workload And for performance reasons, there they succeed" The only thing that we have trouble with is where do we look, and what do we do with our arms? (laughing) And, of course, what do we wear It's that too, right What do I do with my hands? I know! Can you speak up Ricky? The car, it had real good

I felt like I was on a spaceship And I'm not sure what to do with my hands Be good just to hold them down by your side Okay Yeah, great

Well, we were real happy That's what I always found when I did some television I always found it difficult I always found it difficult with the whole body language thing, because when you're on radio, you can dress however you want, you can look in whatever direction you want, you can, you know, your body language can reflect nothing or everything Yeah, perfect example

Look at the three of us on this screen I know Which one of us is the TV guy? You The rest of us, I mean I'm slouching, I'm looking off I'm looking down at my dog here

How did we get onto this? I agree anyway, it's very difficult It's easier for radio people to move to television than it is for television people to move to radio because the other thing too, with television people, you have a lot of people helping you do what you're doing With radio, if you make a mistake Well, everybody knows about it You can't blame anybody but yourself, right? Don't you love it when you do something really stupid, like, you just, your brain falls out of your head when you're on the radio and then somebody calls you, goes, "so you're having a tough day, huh?" Or just like "wow, I heard some dead air, is everything okay?" And it's like, and you're like, you know I don't come to your work and tell you that you're an idiot

I know I'm an idiot It's like being a goalie when you make a mistake, Right? the light goes on behind you and the crowd screams at you (laughing) That was always my favorite thing Back in the early days of radio when I was first in radio, there was a guy who had a radio newsletter that would go around and we would all listen or all read what this guy had written and think, you know, you arm chair son of a bitch, where do you get off? Telling us what we can and can't do, how we do our jobs You know, we're turning this into a craft, and I think for critics, like drive-by critics of radio or television, they're not interested or they're not aware that what is done for them is a craft and Dan, you do it every day on the radio

Alan, you do it every day on the radio It's the same sort of thing This is a performance medium You are sitting in a room by yourself, talking into a piece of metal hanging in front of your face You are trying to create a conversation between you and somebody that you cannot see

And you do that for hours on end If this were any other circumstance, they would medicate you, and put you away (laughing) I think most of my listeners are that No, I'm just kidding No, no, no, no, you're not

And that's the funny thing about it Back to my lovely and talented wife, she's got this great phrase about a complaint 'cause you mentioned that you got picked for Video Hits (buzzer sounding) Video Hits was on CBC, wasn't it? Yes, it was Was it? No, hang on There's Good Rockin' Tonight

Oh, yes, and Video Hits Video Hits Yeah, Video Hits was, I can't remember her name Oh, that's Sonia Yeah, that was Taylor

A Gallagher (dinging) Samantha Taylor, thank you And then Dan Gallagher did it after her, didn't he? That's right, right Yes, he did Okay so, I had this flub

I referenced your competition and now it's completely out of my head Whatever Oh, it was– Do we want to talk about what happened to Music Television? Because I saw this great meme the other day that showed what the world would be like if MTV was still playing music videos (laughing) And of course, it's a utopia Because we now know that MTV long ago stopped playing music videos, that Music Television stopped being a thing and it became more of a reality television experience

I don't know why, what happened, why did we stop playing music videos? Dan, you go first, I have the other answer Okay (laughing) Because there were other mediums by which to get it where they would receive it faster So in, you know, the world that we live in, or the world that developed, radio is still very instant, but at the same time, a band can drop new music without any promotion And I think that it's cheaper

And it's somewhat more effective Do I think that there's still a place for performance based, I mean, we've seen it with the whole COVID thing that we've gone through, that people playing at home has been awesome Like when you see, you know, whether it's Van Halen, or Barenaked Ladies, or whoever, who have picked up, you know, their instruments and played as a band from each of the different places So I think that people still want to see that and they want to see live performances They want to see a screw up

They also want to see the host that loves interviewing, and I think that, you know, that's true, too, whether it's, you know, like, last year, interviewing (indistinct), and we talked about all kinds of funny, like real stuff Funny stuff, stuff that wasn't the typical question And, so what I'm going to say is, the reason that music videos are no longer on TV is because they can monetize it a different way All right, Alan, I want your answer And then I want to come back to interviewing techniques

Alright, short attention spans, we used to sit around in front of a TV for hours and hours and hours, hoping that our favorite video would come on Then YouTube and Facebook and other instant on demand formats and platforms became available and we no longer had to wait So there was no point in running video flow anymore because unless you just wanted it on in the background, which, to be fair, there are still some channels that do that It just lost its appeal for its target audience, because those young kids, the kind who had time to sit around and wait for their video to come on, were now on computer screens looking at YouTube Okay, so Dan, you had said something about interviewing, and the interest in doing the non-typical interview

When I first got into radio as a radio news reporter, one of the interview techniques that I picked up, that proved to be very successful, but also very dangerous, was the stupid question When you're scrum with a group of people surrounding a politician or some figure, and you ask the stupidest question around, that guy is going to give you a response that not only explains whatever the circumstance is, in a very simple and understandable way, but depending on the tone of voice that you present with your question, you might piss him off and get a really good enraged response (laughing) And that's, you know, that's gold right there Now, unfortunately, that only works when the listener hears only the answer, not the question Not very good in a live TV environment

What was your best trick to bring a guest out of their shell or to really make an interview snap? First of all, let me just say that Alan is one of the best interviewers I've ever seen I've been a fan forever (mumbles) Like seriously, dude, you just do it, you have a gift And I and many times over have watched or listened and gone, "God, if I could be that good" So there, you know, that's a real honest, you know, you deserve it dude

Aw, thanks Larry King, I watched when I was young And he was talking about how to interview and I can't remember who was interviewing him And they said, "What is the one trick" and he said, "find out something that they can't figure out how you know it And then let them know at the end of the interview

" This worked so many times, I couldn't believe it But it was like with– Give me an example J Lo J

Lo and I are sitting there, we've been having a great time, through the beginning of the interview and what have you, and then I said, "so tell me the story about the time you ripped your pants And you were hopping a fence on the way to a Menudo concert" She looks at me like, "how do you know this?" And then she goes, "you talked to my mother" I was like, "no, I didn't talk to your mother" She goes "who did you talk to? There's only a few people who know that story

Who did you talk to?" Now, I had talked to Marc Anthony, who at that time, they weren't a couple But they were best friends And so he had been in the radio station, couple weeks earlier and I said, "give me something that she'll never be able to figure out where I know this from" Sure enough, so I said, "well, if you're nice to me, and we have a really good interview, I'll tell you at the end who you can kill Otherwise

" (laughing) And so it was great because I had her on the edge of her seat We had so much fun We had a great time It was a great interview, turned out that she skipped school and hopped a fence, ripped her pants on the fence on the way to Menudo 'cause she had a crush on Ricky Martin If you only had known

(laughing) And so it just got better and better as I would, you know, give her a little bit more rope And she's like, "how do you know this? This is killing me" Anyway, at the end, I explained that she needed to call Marc Anthony I get a text message from Marc Anthony, maybe a day later going, "she wants to kill me" (laughing) It's like, "sorry, but it was awesome

" And he goes, "no, that's the best part," you know Or if you can mess with them, you know, and have some fun So I remember when Mariah Carey, and I I have this as a clip on my demo, actually, from back in the day And it was the fact that Mariah Carey, you know, was Mariah Carey

I mean, she was huge She was massive I interviewed her out six times, and we always got along really, really well And it was because of this first thing that I did, which was I sat down on the couch, she sat down on the couch and we start the interview, and I go, "can you do me a favor, can you just pinch me?" I put my arm around like that "Can you pinch me?" She goes, "what are you talking about?" And he had always talked about, Larry King had talked about two things

Find out something they don't know And two, try and break that physical barrier Because if you can do that, if they'll grab your arm, or they'll say something, or they'll punch you, or whatever it is, they will come to you and give you gold And I was like, "wow, that's really cool" So I actually had her pinch me and then she goes, "what was that about?" I said, "you're real! Holy crap

I'm really sitting on this couch talking to the real Mariah Carey, every guy who locked me in the locker at the COC in Toronto, take that" And she thought it was hilarious Later on in the interview, as you know, Alan, when you're doing radio, the beauty of the way we think it's like this, right? (snapping) So she had asked me to read lyrics to a song And the song was Underneath the Stars, because it was her favorite song on the album, but it wasn't gonna be a hit And I called it Underneath the Stairs

And so what happened was, is she goes, she punches me And she goes, "I'm gonna put you there after this interview, I can't believe you said that" And it was like, this is the real Mariah Carey This is the one that everybody loves and would love to see and I think that that was the gist of where I always went with an interview whether it was, you know, Spice Girls or Metallica or Backstreet Boys or whoever, make them be them And, you know, one of the tricks that I always found was ask a question that they can't just say yes and no to

As we know, that's death in this industry But if you ask them, what's the one thing you miss when you're on tour? "Oh, my mom's cooking or my dog" Well, now all of a sudden you have a million questions that you can connect to And so that was a Larry King journey Follow suit

So, Alan, your interviewing style couldn't be more different than Dan's, at least as far as presentation is concerned It's true What I do is I also had studied Larry King And one of the things that Larry King was very proud of is not doing prep for the interview What? Because he wanted to go in cold, asked a couple of questions just to get the guest warmed up, and then listen very closely to their answer

Well, this fully explains that time that Jerry Seinfeld went on Larry King, and Larry King made some offhanded comments about how Seinfeld might have been canceled or something, and Seinfeld Oh, right just let him have it Yeah You gave it up, right? I did They didn't cancel you

you cancel them You're not aware of this? No, I'm asking you anything You think I got canceled? Are you under the impression that I got canceled? Have I hurt you, Jerry? I thought that was pretty well documented This is a show Is this still CNN? Don't most shows go down a little? Most people do also

There were flaws to this particular technique But you don't go in unprepared You never– No, no, no, I never go in unprepared What I do go into is prepared to listen I'll fire 15 or 20 questions

And if I'm listening and the conversation has veered off, after question three, and I never get to ask the other, you know, 15 questions, great, then it's a good interview, because I got them engaged And the most important thing that you could do, I think, with an interview subject, is to get them to trust you Because if you show that you know what you're doing, you're behaving appropriately You know the subject matter If you can get them to that final step, which is getting them to trust you, they'll tell you anything

Absolutely anything Dan's nodding his head Yeah Oh, absolutely Absolutely

I remember one of the most difficult interviews that I ever was presented with, everybody was like, "Oh, you rolling over the ball from Tears for Fears" And I was a massive Tears for Fears fan– You and me both Oh, God I think you and I are the only two Really? (laughing) How to pronounce it

You like him and Kurt Smith I just could not get enough of their music growing up And I was so you know, I was that liner note reader guy, you know, knew who everybody was on every song, who was a backup vocalist, or a guitarist or a guest vocalist And so I was just like, "oh my god, I get to interview" and I was told very specifically that he was a very difficult interview, because he didn't like being interviewed by people who didn't know anything about the music And the funny thing was, is I knew tons about the music and it was kind of odd because of the fact that I was such a fan that I actually became the fan doing the interview, instead of the nutty kooky radio guy who, you know, at that time doing Tarzan Dan I was a lunatic and asked silly questions and stupid questions and got no one for you know doing the the 62nd interview, the instant interview where you know, the last question was is it an innie or an outie? So, I mean you can imagine (laughing) the credibility level is, you know, iffy at best, but to interview him and then him to say at the very end

You know, I always find this as a great compliment, I think Alan will agree with me is when an artist gets to a point where they like you so much that they ask you to come to the show, so they can meet you Or I would like to, this happened to me a couple of times Santana, Frankie Valli, and in this case, as well, and he said, "you need to come to the show, I need to meet you" And I was like, "I'm gonna meet (mumbles) I'm gonna have my picture taken" 'course I dress like an idiot back then

So, you know, the picture I have, he's really cool And I think I had Daffy Duck on my shirt or something, (laughing) you know, like, meeting this guy But at that time, everybody was wearing the jean shirt with the Daffy Duck on it, embroidered And I'm like, I should just Photoshop that out 'cause it looks so stupid But it's one of those pictures

You know, so that kind of connection that you have as Alan talks about is sometimes really special because you end up being somebody that you know them, and then years later you'll run into them again and they still know you or there's that really positive vibe Have you ever had that like, Alan, where you will interview somebody and then they're like, "you gotta come to the show" Oh, yeah Or they'll call you when they get into town and they're like, "dude, do you have tickets?" And I'm like, "What? (mumbles) Is this really who it is on the phone?" You know, 'cause you can't believe that you made that impression ever And the fact that that's, you know, for us as interviewers is validating

I'll tell you on that point and to wrap up this conversation I had that exact same conversation with my daughter in the middle of an Indigo, when I hung up the phone when you called me (laughing) And I'm like, "I can't believe I just took a call from Tarzan Dan" And of course my 14 year old went "who?" (laughing) And this had been fascinating, we were intending to break this show up into a two-parter because the anniversary of Music Television is not the only thing that's happening this month Airplane turned 40 this year, I know

I know! Both of you guys are huge fans, so let's just end this on one airplane train trivia question, for you Okay All right? You guys ready for this? Yup Go, yeah Are we against each other or are we– Yes

Oh Oh, all right How do we buzz in? (buzzer sounding) We'll do three questions Okay Go

Okay Airplane was almost a direct parody of which 1957 movie? Flight into Danger (buzzer sounding) Negative Airport (buzzer sounding) Zero Hour

(both exclaiming) It was so close, they actually had the film on the set while they were filming, so they could match the shot Wait a second Are you kidding? Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on Requiring them to buy the rights to the film so that they wouldn't get sued Surely you must be kidding

(buzzer sounding) Hang on I'm– I'm serious Don't call me Shirley And don't call me Shirley (bell ringing) Hang on, hang on

What? (laughing) I read it on the Internet it must be true Must be true, right Ah! Ah! Ah! Okay, hang on, Zero Hour was an adaptation of Arthur Haley's original 1956 A corporation called Flight into Danger Hang on

Was it based– You're not getting the point, my friend No, I am getting the point Neither of you No, no, no, shut up How could you possibly be fans of the show

Okay Abdul-Jabbar was– Oh, here we go– I know this, I know this, I know this I'm gonna tell you right now that Flight into Danger was the Arthur Haley novel that was the basis of the movie Zero Hour Ah But they didn't base it upon the book they based it upon Zero Hour

Shut up Okay, next question Okay, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Oh, good Okay Okay

He insisted on an extra $5,000– I know this! on top of the $30,000 salary, for what reason? I have no idea Can I say? His agent was negotiating and he needed an extra five grand because he was buying an oriental rug or something, and that's what he wanted to do with the money (bell dinging) That's exactly it I gotta bonus question for you Okay? Okay

Do you know who was supposed to play his part? Pete Rose Yes! There you go (bell dinging) Oh, wow But he was playing baseball so he couldn't There you go

Dan, this has been fantastic Thank you so much for joining us on The Big Show You're very very welcome Thank you guys for having me I can't even believe it

I'm honored And oh, and thanks for this Hey look at that, yay! (mumbles) you got it! I know that guy and that guy He can be (laughs) Ever wanted (rock music) to be a big shot co-producer? It's just like Hollywood

Visit geeksandbeatscom to learn how you can pad your resume with an exciting show credit We'll even send you the album cover of your episode, suitable for framing in your parents' basement So we got a big shot cash injection from one of our listeners Which defines big shot cash injection

Yeah Michael Hollick, who is a regular Geeks & Beats intern on our intern live streams, meaning if you actually support the show, we'll send you his top secret link so you can actually watch the recording session as it's in progress He said that he just decided to show his appreciation by boosting his Patreon support from $1 to 20 bucks Per show? Per show! Good Lord I don't know how long it's gonna last, but even just once, that's 19 more shows otherwise we would have had to make to get his $1

Well, that's true because you just sent me $25 in Patreon profits, Yes (laughing) Although, which is the sum total of what? A month and a half $33 and four cents Yes Come on, don't denigrate it

Right From all the Patreon supporters Which immediately went into my PayPal account, which I immediately took out and bought a Little Caesars pizza today Did you? Yes There's a Little Caesars pizza in my neighborhood that's just opened, is it worth it? I haven't checked it out

The dogs like the stuff, Chris Great What a selling point, the dogs like it Catch all new episodes of Geeks & Beats Wednesdays on iTunes and watch for Geeks & Beats magazine on a newsstand near you To be part of next week's show, call area code 323 319 NERD

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